Friday, September 15

Sneaking out of anonymity for an important post.

Greetings and welcome to the beautiful people from Crooks and Liars. Get your full-frontal Blue Gal here; get your bonus panties here.

This is a rather personal post. Some people who don't know me might get to know me from this post. But I think it's important.

I am a believing Christian. I believe, at the very least, that Jesus had a unique relationship with Our Creator and that his teachings have direct, applicable validity to my own daily life.

I have a master's degree in theological studies from Harvard Divinity School.

Here is what I want to say:

The President has gone completely mental.


He spoke today at a Rose Garden press conference about there being some "third awakening" in America. This in the context of defending his interrogation bill. He has no idea what he is talking about, either religiously or historically.

Great Awakenings in this country were fairly spontaneous, tremendously emotional, faith revivals. They were not generated by the wishes of a desperate Presidential Administration. The political change that this awakening yielded was the abolition of slavery, and the temperance movement. They did not endorse the failed policies of torture, lying to invade Iraq, and national mesmerism.

These awakenings also had very little long-term impact, religiously, on the nation as a whole. The period of the late nineteenth century, post-Civil War, brought tremendous interest not in mainline Christianity, but in rather radical faith healing and spiritualism. There were as many seances in the post-2nd G.A. period (in the attempt to speak to those lost in the Civil War) as there were "Christian" ministers who denounced them as anti-Christian.

I am a Christian. I do not proslytize.

I am terrified by this development in the obviously deteriorating mental state of the President.

To use any form of "religous awakening" as a justification for policy is pathetic.

To use "religious awakening" as a justification for torture is ...well, there just aren't words.

We are one terrorist attack away from the end of democracy as we know it. There are too many people in this country who will trade all their political freedoms for the freedom to drive to and from work and to watch cable TV.

Things to do:

Support Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. Believe me, there are a lot of Christians, people of other faiths, and atheists and agnostics who support this organization, out of concern that one "brand" of Christianity not trample on the rights of all Americans.

Sign the "First Freedom First" petition here. It is about making sure the separation of church and state remains at the forefront of our Bill of Rights.

Thank you for reading this. Just thank you.

49 comments:

  1. I like this post. Very real. The pres isn't a very intelligent dude, I must admit. I am SO signing your petition, by the way.

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  2. I am not a Christian, but am a devout believer in individual liberty. I say Amen to you Blue Gal & will sign the petition!

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  3. Ye know me -- as I know ye, m'Lass. I'm signin' th'petitions an' am proud o' me BlogMate for speakin' out like th'sassy wench she be, today an' every day.

    I be proud t'have ye aboard me ship.

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  4. I'd like to add my cries of acclaim to all the others.

    I'm not a believer, but I know that I'll always get a fair shake from you.

    You're willing to let people believe what they want to believe and I personally think that if more people could muster the will to do that, the world would be a much better place for everyone, believer and non-believer alike.

    Consider the petitions signed.

    And the next time you're praying, could you have a word or two with Jesus about George? I think he's really giving the Big Guy a bad name :-) (Sorry, couldn't resist the joke).

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  5. good post. we should all be terrified of this cornered beast. he just doesn't have much humanity about him that might stop him from doing that which most of us would consider 'unthinkable'. I've met one true psychopath in my life and he pops into my mind whenever I see George.

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  6. Many unbelievers like myself can still admire the teachings of Jesus without thinking that he was the Son of God. I put great stock in the parable of the Good Samaritan, which teaches us that a persons actions and attitude towards others determines their righteousness. Not their belonging or not belonging to a particular group. The debate of justification by faith or works has been going on since St. Paul and St. James. I side with the latter.

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  7. dustnahes10:20 PM

    the more I study it, the more it occurs to me to believe that religion is a form of insanity.

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  8. Religiosity is one symptom of mental illness. That is not to say that religious people are insane but mentally ill people gravitate to religion.

    Yes Georgie is showing all the signs of a man on the edge. We do need to be worried. But then Osama is the same except he's competent

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  9. Well, count me amongst the happily insane, then, dustnahes.

    And I'll sign, too.

    Maybe we can all hope that the Awakening of which the Decider-In-Chief spoke was actually the country finally awakening to the fact that Bush is not insane, but that he is a fascist who is leading us all down the road to perdition. I pray for that every day.

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  10. And really, please, could we lay off the anti-religious insults here? Bush is NOT a Christian person, and equating him with Christianity and then using THAT as a way of trying to tell us that religion is somehow associated with "mental illness" kind of defeats the purpose of the post here, doesn't it?

    Unless that's what you're trying to do, of course...

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  11. always interested1:07 AM

    Thank you Blue Gal, for all that you've said. I'm with Quaker Dave. I don't believe that George W. Bush is insane. I think he knows what he's doing and is responsible for his actions, but is no less dangerous for that. He does seem to think he is a Chosen One, though. About his use of terms like Awakening, I don't think he is concerned with what it actually means. I think his writers and "handlers" will be pleased if he can confuse people, and throw them off the scent, so that members of this very frightening adminisration can continue down their path of death and destruction, while there mantra might be, "more power to us". I'm reminded that the Nazis in the 1930s used films about eugenics (who to kill, when and why, for medically "justifiable" reasons)in an attempt to dull the senses of much of the nation, while passing legislation that was was so hard to fight. As you are, as Quaker Dave is, I am a believing Christian. For another point of view, from active, believing, caring Christians, if readers of this post so choose, check out Sojourners, a website for an activist Christian community with its roots in the resistance years of the War in Vietnam. The members of Sojourners continue in their faith based social activism. They are working every day, with members of different faiths, to strengthen a current, nation wide movement to take back faith based politics from the extreme right wing, in the United States of America. You in the U.S. have a very difficult road ahead of you. Your upcoming election is very important. Good wishes to you from Canada.

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  12. colleen6:00 AM

    Didn't you secretly agree with "Blood, Sweat and Tears" "I swear there ain't no heaven, but I pray there ain't no hell"?








    '





    ;

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  13. I've signed the petition. Bush may not be insane but I definitely dispute his claim of being a "Christian" when virtually everything he does is in stark contrast to all we know about Christ's behavior and beliefs.

    And while I won't label him insane, I do strongly believe he might be a tad bit deranged.

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  14. me, i'll sign happily.

    the mental illness thing, well, i have had 2 friends that have paranoid schizophrenia run in their families. most patients develop a religious mania that can be quite frightening and dangerous. it does not matter what religion they were raised in, the mania takes elements of that faith and twists it. so, i don't think anyone is taking cheap shots at christianity, it is just that bush HAPPENS to be christian.

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  15. I do so hate to be serious, but I urge anyone reading this comment to do a little research. 'Great Awakenings' are terms used by historians. Please note that the third Awakening - historically - has already taken place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Great_Awakening

    Bush is refering to a certain sect of Evangelical belief that identifies the Third Awakening to pre-apocalyptical events. And he believes that he is a key player in bringing these events to fruition.

    Perhaps he is. The ultimate question may be whether you feel this is a good thing or a bad thing.

    A very important post. Thanks, BG.

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  16. i've been saying for years now that there were certain fundamentalist christian preachers that were just salivating at the chance to be an agent for their appocolypse and rapture etc.

    my question has always been, "how can anyone be so arrogant to actually believe that their GOD, needed THEIR help to do ANYTHING???"

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  17. Dustnashes12:06 PM

    That's an easy one to answer, Sherry p, insanity. As in; not mentally competent, disconected from reality, persuit of unreasonable goals, attachment to grandiose fantasies, disreguard for the wellfare of the "other". Ring any bells?

    Quakerdave, I am sorry that you might chose to be insulted by my opinions. They still stand.

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  18. It's important, in your studies, to not become that which you despise, though. I wouldn't agree that "all religious people are insane" any more than I would believe that "all Muslims are terrorists" or "all atheists are poor spellers." The fundys and Fox News personalities love to paint their opponents with a very wide brush. If we do the same, we are no better than they.

    Not all Christians are Republicans. Not all Alabamians are wingnuts. And not all believers, in whatever, Jesus, Mohammed, feng shui, veganism, paganism, etc. are crazy. Some are, but generalities are not helpful here or anywhere else.

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  19. I would argue, however, that Christians who espouse bigotry, exclusion of non-Christians, and even the imposition of a "Christian" civil government, are total hypocrites. Jesus would not own their beliefs for an instant.

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  20. There's an excellent book out not too long ago (Hellfire Nation by James A. Morone) that explores how two major trends of Christianity (basically fear-mongering vs. actually reading the Bible and doing what Christ said) have been at war throughout American history. I'll let you guess for yourselves which side of the fence Bush lands on. Never thought I'd see the words "episcopal" and "fundamentalist" in the same sentence...

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  21. "..insanity. As in; not mentally competent, disconected from reality, persuit of unreasonable goals, attachment to grandiose fantasies, disreguard for the wellfare of the 'other'."

    Other than perhaps the poor spelling getting in the way, I have no idea what religion is being discussed here, especially that last phrase. Certainly doesn't sound like mine, or BG's, or that of anyone else who regularly chimes in here.

    It may sound like George Bush's version of what he calls Christianity, but many of us know that his isn't the Christ we know, or the God in whom we believe.

    You can stand by your comments, even if they are wrong. But I would encourage you to do two things: First, realize that REAL mental illness - diseases of the brain - are not what we're discussing here. I deal with kids who suffer from these diseases on a daily basis. I have a sister who's bi-polar. You don't know what you're talking about, if you compare faith to disease. This is just an ad hominem attack, and it's weak. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's a fact.

    Secondly, understand that being a hardcore atheist or "non-believer" who "argues" this way makes you just as unreasonable as the fundamentalists. Once you start calling people "traitors" or "evil-doers" or "Nazis" or "fascists" or "mentally ill," the conversation stops, because personal attacks and name-calling aren't arguments.

    GWB and his fellow Dominionists (or Christian nationalists, as they've also been called) are to Christianity as the thugs and criminals who lead international "Islamic" terrorist organizations are to Islam, which is a religion of peace, knowledge, and hope. They believe - and want others to believe - that they can "awaken" their followers to a new dawn, a new place in the world, a new reich. They send others out to die for them in their names, and scare the pants off those at home to keep them in line, all the while feeding them lies and scapegoating those who can be victimized as such. This is the evil we need to fight - all of us.

    Attacking our allies only gives our enemies more power.

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  22. Oy, me pee me pants.

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  23. dustnashes3:40 PM

    Does religion mean spirituality? Can an individual or group be spiritually motivated without being religiously organized? Or, more importantly, can a religious organization merely represent itself as spiritual when in fact it is not? Does mouthing spiritual platitudes constitute religious intent?
    I’m sure that you have come across the adage that the tree is known by it’s fruit. The fact that history provides us with ample example of perfidy within the professed might give rise to the notion that religious organizations seem to lend themselves to corruption. Why would this be the case? Are the religiously inclined unusually susceptible to conniving scoundrels? Maybe just too trusting? Maybe just too naive ? Could it be that the structure it’s self is designed to be subverted or, even more sinister(and/or cynical), is organized religion intended from it’s inception to be manipulative, coercive, exploitive, and predatory? My conclusion is in the affirmative.
    Consider a small snippet of Christian history. In 300AD you could be(probably would be) put to death in Rome for “being” a Christian. 100 years later in the same empire you could be put to death for NOT professing to be a Christian. The rulers had decided that the fledgling religion was useful to them. The Bible had not yet been written (completed), there was no printing press, punctuation had not been invented yet, books were not bound, pages were not numbered, there was no chapter and verse, there was not yet an Old Covenant and a New Covenant to be changed into Testament (?) (a whole topic unto it’s self), the theology was yet to be developed, Mary was not yet a virgin when she gave birth, khana baum was not yet an unknown incense(cannabis +um =to smoke) Eloi, Eloi, lama sabac thani still meant “I surrender myself to the vapor (or smoke) of your existence” (Mayan) not Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani, “My god, my god , why hast thou forsaken me?”(a weird mixture of three different languages, Hebrew, Greek , Arabic). The Christian holidays were still pagan holidays waiting to be subsumed. The Catholic Church had not yet been invented to wreck havoc on an unsuspecting populace with it’s reinforcement of despotic rulers, inquisition/torture/witch burning or it’s missionaries and self promoting greed. Was all this power seeking God’s will? Why did God need wealth? Why, for that matter, does HE still need paper dollars and gold to augment HIS plans. Forgive me if my cynicism disturbs you . I swear that I come by it honestly.
    Power is the name of the game here; power over life’s circumstances, power over other people , power over death. To be swept up in this dance of illusions is a form of insanity. In my humble(not very) opinion organized religion is a giant scam, a con. That includes all of them (that I have experienced). I don’t hold much hope of discovering some obscure ideological treasure.
    I believe that we each must walk our own path and discover our own truth. Perhaps we can walk the same path in different ways or at different times. Perhaps you will take the path that winds through the valley and that I will take the path that climbs up the mountain side. My path is not “better” nor is yours. They are just different and suited to each of our needs (or wants)at that moment. What about morality? You ask. If you study the matter(walk your path), I believe that you will eventually come to the place where you understand that the “rules” are made by the rich to control the poor. One of many manipulative ways of maintaining power. At the root of it all is this insane desire for power.
    In my experience, religious groups are the passive/aggressive, disingenuous type of power seekers. Christians, for example, say that to “have life everlasting” you must give up the world. Then in the next breath they insist that THEY must have control of society, of ideals of morality, of discourse, of wealth and your energy. It never seems to occur to them that they are creating hypocrisy.
    So, when I state that religion is a form of insanity, I mean that organized religion is a form of power seeking and that seeking power is insane behavior. I also believe that until humanity understands that and gives up that behavior there is no chance for a peaceful world. Or justice. Do I have hope for an enlightened form of humanity? Not so much.
    Peace, B

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  24. Can we just say that there are good and bad people in all cultures, societies and religions?

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  25. I believe that we each must walk our own path and discover our own truth. Perhaps we can walk the same path in different ways or at different times. Perhaps you will take the path that winds through the valley and that I will take the path that climbs up the mountain side. My path is not “better” nor is yours.

    Maybe you should have said that before saying that people who suscribe to a particular faith are insane.

    You can believe that organized religion is a scam if you want to. If that's the case, it's a con that has changed my life for the better. I believe that religious institutions can help change the world for the better. I look to my Quaker forebearers who were abolitionists and who supported women's rights and who opposed the evil of war, on the basis of their RELIGIOUS beliefs, first and foremost. I look at the Black church which gave us (all) the civil rights movement. I look to the faith of religiously-inspired leaders such as Gandhi and the Dalai Lama.

    And I stand by what I said before. Yes, we can all get "there" by different paths. What we shouldn't be doing is shoving each other out of the way on the way there.

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  26. I am a pretty religious Pagan, and I cannot argue with you, Blue Gal. I don't proslytize either. I really think that's what we need less of, proslytizing, I mean, not people who believe in the teachings of their particular religion.

    I think if those of us who believe in something actually did what our religion taught, and less time harrassing other religions about being wrong; the better off we would be. For those folks who do not believe in "supernatural" things, perhaps they should do what they think is right, and leave those of us who do alone.
    Great post, Blue Gal. Thank you.

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  27. Do not be afraid, be joyful...if what our theologian-in-chief says is true - that we are on the verge of another great awakening - trust in the Holy Spirit. Even nonchristians know this to be true: Jesus is the prince of peace. His was the way of nonviolence. This will be the mark of any true revival. And Lord knows we need peace.

    My denomination was birthed from the second great awakening: the christian church (disciples of christ). We describe ourselves as a "people of the table" and have a free and open table for anyone. In my congregation, we add no qualifiers. This table is made all the more authentic by the free and open table we provide every Saturday evening for anyone who is hungry. We serve over 80 guests each week with the help of five other local congregations.

    This is christianity at its best. And we need more of it.

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  28. What I hope that means, RevPhat, is that the decider isn't going to get quite the Awakening he had in mind...

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  29. What keeps me up at nights is the thought of a crew of Evangelical Fundamentalists from the Air Force Academy getting themselves the keys to a Stealth Bomber, loaded with live nukes, thinking that they're on a 'mission from God' and then acting on it, with no one to stop them, because well, their entire Chain-of-Command subscribes to the same delusion.

    Much scarier stuff than 19 engineering students stealing somebody elses airplanes and flying them into some buildings.

    I'm not going to try and convert you from your beliefs Blue Gal but as a self-described Christian woman here's something you may want to consider regarding God's sexism:

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god15.htm

    It's challenging, I know, as is this passage on how God gets off on slavery:

    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god13.htm

    Sorry, since Rosie O'Donnell got so widely mocked for saying that radical Christianity can be harmful to one's health, and being that a lot of justification for slavery in America by its practitioners came from The Holy Bible I have a hard time letting Rosie's detractors get a pass just because they put on looks of shock and indignation.

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  30. dustnashes5:34 PM

    Quakerdave; What would be your ideal social construction? Could a non believer participate and not be ostracized or persecuted for their non belief in your ideal world? Could an atheist be president? Would you vote for an atheist?

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  31. "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" Lovely. Nice to see we're moving forward with the level of dialogue here.

    The web page cited says it all: The Bible was written by men, who existed in a sexist society. And "God" didn't say anything: the Bible is the "inspired word" of God, written by (male) humans, unless you are a biblical literalist. I'm not one of those, btw.

    Newsflash: So we knew that. They - the folks who wrote the Bible -also said it was okay to own slaves and they also believed they had the right to murder their children if they displeased them. Again, only fundamentalists and literalists believe this.

    Jesus spoke in the language of someone who was raised in that same culture. And we also know that it's not as if someone was sitting next to him taking notes. The Bible we have today was written many years after Jesus's death.

    Hello. We knew that, too.

    The name of the blog that espouses this "news" also says a lot about what's going on here. So you really don't to dig much deeper than that.

    This actually addresses one of the previous thread points: Some organized religions have actually managed - I know this is hard for some of us to wrap our brains around, so stay with me - to MOVE BEYOND the literal words of the Bible to the BIGGER ISSUES dealt with therein. While some see the (carefully selected) texts of the Bible as being sexist, some organized faiths - the human institutions dedicated to the celebration of religious faith -have either stayed put in the second century AD or have grown and moved along with human progress. I can speak as someone who was raised in a faith that still needs to "grow up" in this department, and as a person who now subscribes to a faith which has a one of its four core beliefs a testimony of equality, which states that all human beings are the same in the heart of God.

    Yes. All fundamentalists are scary. Muslim, Christian, what have you. That includes the radical anti-religionists as well, I think, because they seem to be just as closed-minded.

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  32. Thank god, even though I'm an atheist, there's still people like you.

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  33. OF COURSE I would vote for an atheist! For crying out loud... I really don't care whether a person espouses a particular religion or not. If you think that's where I'm coming from, you have not been paying attention. And I do NOT believe that a person who says s/he is an atheist or an agnostic or whatever should be persecuted or ostracized. Again, if that's what you think I'm saying, you're not listening. it would also violate MY faith to do so! That would be, like, sooo unQuakerly, dude.

    After being raised in the United Methodist Church, I spent twenty years claiming I was a "spiritual person" who was basically an agnostic. That changed, for reasons I will not discuss here. (I have my own blog for that.) I would NEVER advocate discrimination against a non-believer (or whatever term you want to use).

    What I have a problem with would include 1) people like Mr. Bush, and radical Islamists, who are hypocrites and who use religion as an excuse to do real harm in the world; 2) people who "have no religion" and who real free to dismiss (at best) those who do as lunatics (as I think was done here) without taking the time to actually find out who they are or what they stand for.

    What would be my ideal social construct? How about a society based on human rights, human decency, and basic human compassion? I think those are the hallmarks of all the world's great religions, and most other folks would go along with them as well.

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  34. Ideal social consruction:

    "Love thy neighbor."

    How's that? Work for ya?

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  35. *construction*

    Two points off for spelling. Sorry.

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  36. Oh, and a final thought: In my Meeting, "God" needs paper money because prayer alone doesn't keep the heater working or the lights on.

    Just like it - supposedly - doesn't help amputees, I guess. Sheesh. I'm done.

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  37. always interested6:41 PM

    I think that Quaker Dave has brought the discussion back to what it was about in the first place, the danger that GWB and his compatriots are currently presenting to the American public (and others who might venture across the border, or be picked up in foreign countries). I have difficulty believing that GWB is a Christian, but I don't think that is really the point. I do think that "religiosity" is being used as a cover for this American administration's actions aimed (like a weapon) in the direction of ever greater control and power, for themselves. Your next election is just over 50 days away. As Cap'n Dyke said on her blog: Vote. The extremists do, almost all the time. A heated discussion about religion, or spirituality, is understandable. However, like good photographers, we need to focus down. We can't afford to go off on tangents-- not now.

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  38. dustnashes7:25 PM

    Quakerdave; You seem miffed at me for "dismissing" your religion. You have put the word lunatic in my mouth, accused me of shoving, name calling, and saying that a people of a particular faith are insane.(and being a bad speller)
    Get a grip!
    My original comment as that the more I see of religion(organized variety)the more it seems like a form of insanity. (I actually really appreciate Quakers even the insane ones ;) ) I have explaned that it is hypocrisy, cruelty, selfishness, deceit, greed, and all the other things done in the name of religion (organized variety) that disturbs me. How is it that the "good" religious people allow the "bad" ones too hi-jack the process? My answer: it's in the design. People like the Bush family and Dobson on back into ancient history have used religion in a disingenuous way to promote their own agendas. Playing along with this is a failure to recognize reality, and yet much of America stumbles along behind the process in a fog of placid confusion. How else could Bush even get close to re-elected.
    "Foolme once--ahh but, fool me----, ahh, don't get fooled again!"
    When I get to Canada, I'll invite you for a visit.

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  39. QuakerDave - Religiosity has nothing to do with any formal belief or religion with talking about the insane. The mentally ill will glom onto anything with fervor and blind spirit. It's a defense mechanism that allows them to think they are no longer responsible for their actions since they are now the service of ___________ .

    Life also becomes simple since every thing is either Good or Evil.
    Shades of Gray (Reality) is what is so hard for the mentally ill to deal with.

    I hope you see that it not a jab at religious beliefs, just an identified pattern of the insane.

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  40. Blue Gal - I'm no theologan (the explanation given me for the miracle of the Virgan Birth was that "Women in occupied countries often find themselves in trouble.")

    I did accidentally go to a Christian Summer Camp when I was in Jr. High. Let's just say it did not take (I'm not sure when statutes expire on these things), but I know for a fact that particular camp no longer has co-ed swimming.

    Regards,

    Tengrain

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  41. I forgot to mention, I signed the petition.

    'Grain

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  42. the more I study it, the more it occurs to me to believe that religion is a form of insanity.

    insanity. As in; not mentally competent, disconected from reality, persuit of unreasonable goals, attachment to grandiose fantasies, disreguard for the wellfare of the "other". Ring any bells?

    My original comment as that the more I see of religion(organized variety)the more it seems like a form of insanity.

    So I got that part right.

    To be swept up in this dance of illusions is a form of insanity. In my humble(not very) opinion organized religion is a giant scam, a con. That includes all of them (that I have experienced).

    So which part about being "miffed" did I get wrong again? You compared being religious, or subscribing to religion, as a form of insanity. That's what, if anything, has me "miffed." You throw words like "insanity" about as if you actually seem to know what it means.

    I'm not really miffed, by the way. And I think I have a grip. I know exactly where you're coming from. Been there, done that.

    Yes, people in power, throughout history, have hijacked religion in order to gain and keep that power. They've hijacked a lot of other things, including nationalism, patriotism, flags, love of one's mother, music, nice uniforms, poetry, and the color blue. Are all of those things symptoms of "insanity"?

    And, with all due respect, organic, when someone says that belief in an organized religion is akin to "insanity," I think I have a right to ask questions. One, what specifically do you mean, and two, what do you mean when you misuse a word like "insanity," which in this culture is so over-used and so obviously misunderstood?

    And the comment about spelling was a cheap shot, for which I sincerely apologize.

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  43. And we Quakers are all "insane," by the way. After all, we sit in a big room in total silence and wait for God to speak to us. How "crazy" is that?

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  44. Wow. I just got back from symphony and you guys have been busy. Yeah, I think my original point was that Bush is using some apocalyptic vision he has as a justification, most importantly and most dangerously in his OWN MIND, for his "war on terror" and his interrogation policies. I think that is askin' for trouble.

    If you or anyone else thinks the End Times are near, good for you. Get rid of the cable box, the ipod, the second and third car, the health club membership, etc. etc. and detach from the material things of this world and prepare for the second, third, whatever, coming. I don't know much about the apocalypse but I suspect it will require a separation from many material comforts we take for granted.

    But please don't base American foreign and particularly Middle East policy on your hypotheses. For one thing, you're giving me the creeps. And secondly, if you are wrong by a few thousand years, give or take, we're screwed anyway.

    Let's close this thread with a little ecumencial prayer.. oops. Nevermind.

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  45. always interested11:57 PM

    Welcome back from the symphony, Blue Gal. Well said. Hey guys, remember to vote in November.

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  46. To pray is to be "insane," remember?

    Anyway, hope you enjoyed the symphony. Me? I'm off to bed. Got to get up early, to go to Meeting.

    Peace, all. I'm done here.

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  47. But please don't base American foreign and particularly Middle East policy on your hypotheses. For one thing, you're giving me the creeps. And secondly, if you are wrong by a few thousand years, give or take, we're screwed anyway.

    that, has been my thoughts AND my fear for some time now.

    me, i agree that there are many paths in life choose that which fullfills and comforts you and helps you to be a better human being and let others believe or not as they choose.

    with the current crop of people in power now, i think we are screwed.

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  48. Sorry I is LATE to the party...but I was bizee writing up a postie on this NEW research indicating more Religiosity equate more Dysfunctionality in society:

    "For this study’s purpose, “dysfunctionality” is defined by such indicators of poor societal health as homicide, suicide, low life expectancy, STD infection, abortion, early pregnancy, and high childhood mortality (under five-years old). Religiosity is measured by biblical literalism, frequency of prayer and service attendance, as well as absolute belief in a creator in terms of ardency, conservatism, and activities."

    and the U.S. tops the Charts!

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  49. Okay. I give. You win.

    It's been fun.

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